Nov 18, 2017
Cass Midgley and Dr. Bob Pondillo talk with Jeff Haley and Dale McGowan, authors of "SHARING REALITY: How to Bring Secularism and Science to an Evolving Religious World."
Jeff T. Haley is a scientist, lawyer, and
inventor. He has argued before the U.S Supreme Court, and founded
and directed the nonprofit that led Washington state's successful
medical marijuana
initiative. He is currently the founder and CEO
of OraHealth, which sells his patented healthcare products through
30,000 pharmacies worldwide. Dale McGowan is the author and editor
of numerous books, including Parenting Beyond Belief, In Faith and
In Doubt, and Atheism for Dummies. In 2008 he was named Harvard
Humanist of the Year for his work in nonreligious parent
education.
Religions are a natural outgrowth of the
intuitive ways of knowing that evolved with human culture. Though
many people continue to find value in religious identity and
community, intuitive knowledge has been eclipsed by a more
effective way of knowing-the scientific way. A better way of
relating religion to politics called secularism is gradually
replacing theocracy. Once you understand and accept the scientific
way of knowing and this preferred relationship of church and state,
you become agnostic and
secular-even if you continue to identify with and participate in
religion.As Jeff T. Haley and Dale McGowan argue in this volume,
this isn't some abstract dream-it's happening right now. Religions
are in a continuous state of evolution, changing beliefs, values,
and practices over time. All religions,
including
Christianity
and Islam, can evolve to accept the scientific way of knowing and
secularism, becoming agnostic and even atheistic without losing
their essential value. Haley and McGowan explain how you can help
this natural process, sharing reality with your friends and family
in a way that encourages religions to embrace the best of
humanity'S knowledge and values.
The
only reason I celebrate ANYONE'S faith is if it is "light" and
"loose" and full of doubt and uncertainty and love and
connectedness and empathy. And I only do that because in this
chapter of human history it's the best thing I can do to further
the demise of all nonsense forged out of fear, childishness,
death-anxiety, and the need for extant meaning, aka religions. See,
even if there is a "god" or something of the sort, no human should
ever bow the knee to it, nor would a good god want that. The best
practice of ethics, morals, virtue, etc. is to ignore god and
attend to reality--your neighbors, problem solving, conflict
resolution--all the stuff that plagues us and makes life difficult.
The day that we stop looking to the heavens to fix us or to save us
or to create a new place for us to exit this mess, is the day that
we put on our big-person pants, roll up our sleeves, and get busy
living and loving the facts, what it means to be human, and the
honest resolution of real problems. All notions that take our eyes
off reality and onto untruths contribute to our problems, not solve
them. And for those too imprinted with religion to embrace that,
consider this: after we forsake god and actually love one another
and fix things, any god worth her salt will still say, "well done
good and faithful servant," because if his ego is too fragile to
share the "glory" then fuck him!
Now I also want to say something about pedagogy. Pedagogy simply means the function or work of a teacher. Now, nobody likes a smarty pants. But lets ask ourselves why? It could be argued that often the reason people don't like people who know something they don't and want to pass it on is insecurity or jealousy, which are not virtues I feel it must be said. On the other hand, when the student is ready the teacher arrives. Which implies that, like what Jesus said, that trying to teach someone unsolicited advice can backfire. It also has the potential of cutting into their freedom to figure it out for themselves, which knowledge that's hard earned and self-determined always has a more indelible and lasting effect on the learner. It's odd isn't it? My therapist is a wise, old sage who is extremely skilled and self-disciplined in NOT giving me the answers to my problems. Because he knows the value of me figuring it out for myself. He's told me that client after client beg him to "TELL ME WHAT TO DO!" And in his wisdom, he won't. And yet our schools are filled with teachers telling kids what they don't want to hear. What's the balance? You know the phrase, "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink?" Often, we focus on the "can't make them drink" part; but think about the first part: we CAN lead people to water and sometimes we should. It goes back to what Jesus said, doesn't it? We should assess the person we're engaged with whether they seem to be a candidate for the truth we could endow in that moment. Otherwise, we're being presumptuous, are we not? For those of us who love to set people free with truth, for those of us whose lives have benefitted SO greatly from truths we've discovered and we want to do is share this or that truth with them, for those of us who see our loved ones sabotaging their own lives by believing lies, we owe to ourselves and everyone in our lives to exercise some age-old wisdom and self-control and truly discern the moment whether it's pregnant with pedagogical possibility, or that person will only resent the impartation and experience it as condescending. It will be lost on them and it will backfire. Often they will double down on their self-deception just to spite you.
Similarly, our guests today, Jeff and Dale have taken a similar high road when it comes to the religious hegemonic stronghold Christianity has over America. Instead of the firebrand atheism, which has its place, they've chosen to play nice with their fellow Americans who identify as Christian. They, like the mission of the podcast, seek to oil the wheels of the natural evolution of religious culture and slow, gentle deconstruction that truth will inevitably have on untruths.
We taped this conversation on October 21st, 2017. We interview people you don’t know, about a subject no one wants to talk about. We hope to encourage people in the process of deconstructing their faith and help curb the loneliness that accompanies it. We think the world is a better place when more people live by sight, not by faith. Please subscribe to our podcast, and leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts. Also, you can support us monetarily in two easy ways: you can pledge one dollar per episode or more through Patreon; that’s www.patreon.com/eapodcast, or leave a lump-sum donation through PayPal at our website, www.everyonesagnostic.com. The smallest contribution is greatly appreciated.
Credits:
"Towering
Mountain of Ignorance" intro by Hank Green https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3v3S82TuxU
Intro
bumper "Never Know" by Jack Johnson
The segue music on this
episode is recorded by Sam Maher on a handpan in the NY City
subway.
Thanks for listening and be a yes-sayer to what is.
If you would like to contact our guests directly, you can reach jeff@haley.net and dale@dalemcgowan.com
parentingbeyondbelief.com/blog