Everyone's Agnostic Podcast
Cass & Bob interview people you don't know about a subject no one wants to talk about--losing faith in the supernatural.

Before we get into this week’s episode, a brief word about this week’s events around white-supremacy and the President’s remarks. His insistence on imputing violence on “both sides,” completely misses the point, of course, in that one side’s resistance, however imperfect, has been justified since at least the 1940’s by the historically proven abuse of power and ethnic cleansing agenda of racial supremacy. To no one’s surprise by now, Trump’s insanity at pronouncing both sides equally guilty is, in fact, ludicrous because it equates evil with good—a determination he obviously has no compass, no core, and no soul by which to measure. I do hope that my fellow Americans do not share his oblivion and stupidity. Stand strong resisters; even though they know not what they do, they do not deserve forgiveness, patience, or passivity. That said, we must do more than just punch individuals on the street, we must enlighten whatever hearts and minds are left of those who elected him. Speak out, write blogs, songs, and poetry, vote, talk to friends and family, coerce, convince, and persuade, but please do not think this will go away without some serious social chemotherapy.

Welcome everyone to episode 164 of the Everyone’s Agnostic podcast. I’m Cass Midgley. Today, Dr. Bob Pondillo and I interview Molly UnMormon. Obviously, this is a pseudonym; she's not entirely out to her friends and family. Molly is a blogger, writer, and poet at Doubting Dogma; that's doubtingdogmablog.wordpress.com. She lives in south-central Pennsylvania with her husband and two dogs. She served in the Army and continues her career in the civilian sector of the federal service. (yeah, she's kinda bad-ass) She grew up in Colorado, where she was born and raised in a conservative and devout Mormon home. After several phases of not attending Church and some revealed family secrets, she doubted the truthfulness of the Church. It was another two years before she began doubting the core of her faith and finally wrote her letter of resignation to the Church. In order to deal with the frustrations of lost faith, she began blogging, and later podcasting, about her journey.

Before we get into our talk with Molly, this conversation brought up something for me that I want to emphasize: relationships. Yeah, I'm frustrated at how many relationships are complicated by if not ended by the fact that we no longer adhere to the master narrative of Christianity and how that somehow equates to no longer having enough in common, as humans, to remain in contact or congenial.  But the human condition is unavoidably universal and we ALL have the shared experience of trying to find our way in this world, we all get stuck in traffic (as Marlene pointed out last week), we all get sick now and then, we all form opinions about movies, sports, politics, home decor, ice cream flavors, etc. And this brings up for me our ability to compartmentalize. Compartmentalization is a tool that can benefit our lives and diminish it depending how we use it. Compartmentalization is an unconscious psychological defense mechanism used to avoid cognitive dissonance, or the mental discomfort and anxiety caused by a person having conflicting values, cognitions, emotions, beliefs, even personas. For example, Walter White on Breaking Bad was a high school Chemistry teacher and family man while living a double life as meth cook.  We all do it. We're different people around say our grandparents as we are around our intimate friends. We may also know in one part of our brains that Horoscopes are bullshit and yet read them anyway because it rings true and feels good to think the universe really knows me and perhaps has plans laid out for me. compartmentalization can be a tool that makes you a better person in that you're more engaged with the present moment because you've set aside distracting things that are on your mind in order to fully focus on the task at hand. For example, it can be helpful to leave one's thoughts around one's job at the office in order to be more present for one's loved ones at home. This is healthy compartmentalization because you're not in denial about those other things, you're just controlling which thoughts you're going to focus on now, knowing that you will attend to the others later.

On the flip side, we can knowingly or unknowingly use compartmentalization to partition off thoughts that make us uncomfortable. As a Christian, I had to tell myself things like "God knows what he's doing" to stave off my fear of say my daughter rejecting Jesus and being cast into outer darkness forever while I feasted at the banquet table in Jesus' throne room. We delay our own maturity when we bury our heads in the sand instead of get honest with ourselves. This too is compartmentalization. A Christian who is a good person at heart, has to compartmentalize a God who commits genocide, eternal torture, and doesn't intervene in tragic and/or unjust circumstances so that they can sing a worship song to that monster. Or in the context of my concern today for broken relationships due to religion, compartmentalization allows people to choose loyalty to their God--who is both imaginary and evil--over their loyalty to their own family member or friend, who is real and good.

Compartmentalization is how the majority of Evangelicals believe Trump is a good thing for the country...or Pro-Life people are simultaneously pro-Capital Punishment or hawkish when it comes to bombing foreign nations.  But when it comes to Christians allowing themselves to come in contact with people who they know hold a contrary belief to their belief--their precious belief that ensures their acceptance into heaven and was purchased by a tortuous beating of their beloved savior god-man and left to die a slow painful death nailed to a cross, they not only want to mentally compartmentalize conflicting thoughts and evidence that casts doubt on their beliefs, they want to compartmentalize us--the people that represent such evidence--out of their lives. Our very presence reminds them of their own doubts. I don't over flatter ourselves, but I imagine that, in some ways, they envy us. They envy our courage, and those who are more on the margins of their own faith, are probably watching us to see how that works out, taking the path of outright unbelief.

One last note on this subject of compartmentalization: in my personal therapy, I have done some work with dissociative issues. Where parts of me--be they the Cass that experienced something traumatic at a certain age, or the Cass that didn't get enough affirmation from his father, or the 17 year old Cass who didn't properly grieve his father's death and ran into the arms of a beautiful affirming woman to prop up his ego and establish validation and identity vicariously through her, or whatever. The goal of integrating these compartmentalized versions of one's self is healthy, I think. I've benefitted greatly from comforting my fearful, insecure 17 year old self and my 51 year old self welcoming him into the 21st century, to forgiving the Cass that made horrendous public mistakes, to affirming the sexually confused Cass and reversing the damage done by shame and self-hatred. I can attest to the benefits of integrating one's fractured self, conflicted and divided, actually fighting within one's self and manifesting in self-sabotage, paranoia, and being a walking contradiction. As an ex-Christian, I welcome my former Christian self into my core rather than deny that I ever believed it, as embarrassing as that may be. And by saying yes to my journey in all it's hills and valleys, I accept my reality and restore my dignity.

Ironically, when a person remains a compartmentalized person, I think they find comfort in what I'll call counterfeit integration by, instead of integrating internally, they join a group of people just as compartmentalized as they are. All the members of the group have forfeited their personal agency and so they can feel good about themselves even though they've sold their soul up the river. Their doubts can be squelched because all of these people can't be wrong. Such a group is good at putting on airs and masks and posing as good people, nice and thoughtful, but it's only because of their deep need for acceptance. You know the difference between someone being kind because they need something and someone being kind because they're kind, right?

Conversely, when a person integrates within themselves, accepts their self, they don't have the unhealthy need for safety in numbers and groupthink. They do, however, being human still desire friendships, except now, that they are whole and integrated, they look for relationships with other whole and integrated people--other yes-sayers. A community made up of people who love themselves, who are comfortable in their humanity and unashamed of their flawed, imperfect selves, is FAR more capable and empowered to be honest and real and genuine in their community than a group of compartmentalized, reality-denying, scaredy-cats who are embattled within themselves with self-loathing and disgust of their own humanity.  

When ideologies and tenants are canonized as sacred, unquestionable, and static, and then education, research, and science reveal the fallacy of those beliefs, or at least a need to amend, adapt and rethink what we formerly thought, we are either going to discard those former beliefs for the newfound facts we've been exposed to, or we're going to set those beliefs aside in their own compartment of our brains and tote them along as we aspire to be honest people with integrity. We have no other choice. But consider the emotional and mental toll that living with such inner tension might have on your life. No one has perfected this, least of all myself, but I think it's obvious that they healthiest route and the most moral choice is to try to be an honest person with eyes wide open who holds on very loosely to ideologies and beliefs, who is willing to release them when they prove false and/or no longer serves your higher values. Our hearts and minds cannot help but be freer and happier when we lighten the load by throwing old sentimentalized things away, when we stop being mental hoarders of things we're afraid to cast aside, when we subject all our compartmentalized beliefs to scrutiny, and retain only that which is true and aligns with our new values that we've allowed to evolve by critical thinking, snapping out of denial, and saying yes to what is.

We taped the conversation on July 30th, 2017, and my talk with Peter on August 7th. We interview people you don’t know, about a subject no one wants to talk about. We hope to encourage people in the process of deconstructing their faith and help curb the loneliness that accompanies it. We think the world is a better place when more people live by sight, not by faith. Please subscribe to our podcast, and leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts. Our show is available on most podcast platforms.  Also, you can support us monetarily in two easy ways: you can pledge one dollar per episode through Patreon; that’s www.patreon.com/eapodcast, or leave a lump-sum donation through PayPal at our website, www.everyonesagnostic.com. The smallest contribution is greatly appreciated.

Credits:
"Towering Mountain of Ignorance" intro by Hank Green https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3v3S82TuxU
Intro bumper "Never Know" by Jack Johnson
The segue music is on this episode are segments from music by Nightwish, a favorite of our guest today.

 

Thanks for listening and be a yes-sayer to what is.

Molly's Blog: Doubting Dogma


Direct download: Ep_164_Molly_UnMormon.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 12:53am CDT
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Cass Midgley and Dr. Bob Pondillo interview Dr. Marlene Winell. This is our second interview with Marlene, back in March of 2015 on Episode 35. She is the founder and director of JourneyFree.org. Journey Free is dedicated to helping people transition out of harmful religions, recover from trauma, and rebuild their lives.  They develop programs for both individuals and groups. From their website, "If you are recovering from religious harm, we have great respect for your strength and courage. Please know that you are not alone and things can get better." We're honored to have her back on the show; she's been helping people recover from religion for 23 years.

Born and raised overseas by missionary parents, Marlene was immersed in fundamentalist Christianity from childhood. She moved away from that religion during college and found the transition process so difficult and intriguing that she began to research it professionally. In 1994 she published Leaving the Fold: a Guide for Former Fundamentalists and Others Leaving their Religion which has become a leading self-help book in the field of religious recovery. In 2011, she coined the term for the condition she calls Religious Trauma Syndrome.

She holds a bachelor and a masters in Social Ecology from the University of California, Irvine, with an emphasis on marriage and family relations. She earned her doctorate from Penn State in Human Development and Family Studies. Her area of special study was programs to enhance human development in adulthood.

Dr. Winell has taught courses in adult development at Penn State, Colorado State University, and  Boulder Graduate School and University of California, Santa Cruz. She was licensed as a psychologist in Colorado where she had a private therapy practice. She also worked as a psychologist in Australia for seven years before relocating to California. Her primary focus is on developing services for recovering from religious harm. She believes this is important for individuals and for society to move forward.

In this talk, we tackle issue of post-religious sexuality, sexism, and some really helpful tips on how to communicate and relate to religious family members around this issue.

Before we get into our talk with Marlene, I had a short 15 minute talk with Peter Montoya. We had Peter on back at the end of 2016 on episode 130. Peter is a true go-getter. He has an appetite for life and emotional health that sets him apart. If he wasn't such a genuine soul and a true friend, I'd pigeonhole him as one of the motivational speakers types, like a Tony Robbins or something. But the thing about these types of people, is if they don't fall into their own ego and greed and become cheap posers and charlatans, they have a lot to offer and their energy and passion is contagious. And Peter is one of those who has all the assets of motivated person without the masks and lies and deceit. He was there for me when I was drowning several months back and was a real life-line for me. He's got a project going that is not only relevant for Californians, where he lives, but the principles for building community that come through in this conversation will be helpful to all of us that hungry for intimate friendships post-Christianity. I know you're gonna like him. But more importantly, you may be quickened to do something in your town that fosters essential relationships. Seriously, as humans, we are not going to be our best selves or truly develop character or live up to our potential if we're not engaged with honest, intimate friendships on a regular basis. This is science. This is evolution. And I mean that in the meaningful sense too. Like more laughter, more looking forward to the coming week because of the events we have on our calendar. If you're feeling like your calendar is stale, you're starting to get bored with or even hopeless about the future, the ideas we discuss here may energize you to make some calls, host some get-togethers, and initiate ways to elevate your lifestyle by meeting and involving cool people in your lives.

So I'm happy to bring these two outstanding guests on and I'm confident that your life will be enriched is some way. First my one-on-one with Peter Montoya, then Bob and I talk with Dr. Marlene Winell.

We taped the conversation with Marlene on July 29th, 2017, and my talk with Peter on August 7th. We interview people you don’t know, about a subject no one wants to talk about. We hope to encourage people in the process of deconstructing their faith and help curb the loneliness that accompanies it. We think the world is a better place when more people live by sight, not by faith. Please subscribe to our podcast, and leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts. Our show is available on most podcast platforms.  Also, you can support us monetarily in two easy ways: you can pledge one dollar per episode through Patreon; that’s www.patreon.com/eapodcast, or leave a lump-sum donation through PayPal at our website, www.everyonesagnostic.com. The smallest contribution is greatly appreciated.

Credits:
"Towering Mountain of Ignorance" intro by Hank Green https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3v3S82TuxU
Intro bumper "Never Know" by Jack Johnson
The segue music is on this episode is me goofing off on various percussion instruments from my collection.

 

Thanks for listening and be a yes-sayer to what is.

http://journeyfree.org/

Dr. Marlene Winell's previous appearance on Everyone's Agnostic Ep 35

Peter Montoya's EA episode 130



Direct download: Ep_163_Marlene_Winell.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 12:01am CDT
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Cass Midgley and Dr. Bob Pondillo interview Bonnie & Clyde. They wish to remain incognito. They are a middle-aged married couple in a southern state in the US. And their story is almost as amazing as their personalities.  

 

Bonnie was a normal college kid who participated in normal college kid stuff.  But her southern Baptist upbringing tainted normal exploration and caused her to sink into a deep well of shame, fear and dread.  She thought she was too far gone for Jesus. Until she participated in a Walk to Emmaus when she was 23 and the prodigal daughter came out a complete radical christian.  She was ultra involved and ultra committed to Jesus.  She even created a purity retreat for high school girls which espoused the whole purity ring/marry jesus/ save your virginity thing.   

Bonnie and Clyde met in their late 20's when Clyde was fresh out of bible school, a worship leader and a virgin who could slice and dice scripture/concordances/John Piper/and all the dead guys.  He was a calvinist, raised "King James only" Church of Christ in a house of toxic masculinity.  He went to ACU in Abilene Texas where he became part of the 2nd wave Jesus movement of the 1990's and ended up in Kansas City and the House of Prayer with Mike Bickle.

They married a year after meeting following the prescribed orders to marry a spouse who loved Jesus more than each other. Fast forward to hell: Clyde became abusive, domineering, controlling, and mean.   Yet, they plastered on masks and continued to be in leadership in churches...pretending. When they moved back to Bonnie's small home town, things got worse and it was harder to hide. Finally Bonnie sought outside help; the intimate terrorism was unbearable. But that backfired. The reaction of the church, their Christian friends and my family was completely unhelpful and disheartening.  She was afraid for her life, separated from Clyde, and filed for protective orders against him. .

On her own, Bonnie began deconstructing her faith, listening to podcasts and reading books. She gained personal agency for the first time in her life. She moved back in with Clyde because she didn't trust him to be alone with their two sons and felt strong enough to weather the storms of Clyde's temperament and abusive behavior.  Bonnie educated herself on Clyde's mental illness and learned how to manage someone with borderline personality disorder.  She could see a good person underneath the symptoms. She knew a good guy was in there somewhere and wasn't quite ready to give up. Eventually Clyde stopped going to church too. Bonnie kept her new humanism to herself and practiced asking Clyde questions and listening. Ironically, she applied 1 Peter chapter 3, normally a despised verse for oppressed women. It says, "Wives submit yourselves to your husbands, so that even if they refuse to believe the word, they will be won over without words by the behavior of their wives." But she spun it to win Clyde over to the truth. Over time, Clyde warmed to Bonnie's strong love and Clyde started deconverting on his own. The anger, the combative behavior, and the judgmentalism faded out. Today, he is an agnostic/atheist and his BPD symptoms are gone.

It's hard to believe, but today they are mutually respectful best friends and deeply in love. I welcome your skepticism as you listen to their story; Bob and I were skeptical but of course we'll let you decide if they persuade you or not. Because they are the only two ex-Christians they know, it has bonded them together and they actually enjoy the covert nature of their Bonnie and Clyde personas in their small southern town surrounded by a Christian brainwashed community.

Before we get into our talk with Bonnie and Clyde, let me read an email I received this week from Mary in California. She writes,

I just listened to your most recent podcast, the one explaining the prayer in the Oval Office, and wanted to let you know how much I appreciate your commentary. Your unique contribution is helping us distinguish the worldviews with which, as children, some of us were programmed.  What I’m seeing more and more is that although I have broadened my horizons, I don’t realize the “factory-installed” [early childhood indoctrination] default settings that undergird everything.  You are, week by week, helping me distinguish that, and I’m deeply grateful.

Some of your commentary that gets through to me best is when you rattle off those Bible verses that flow so easily and do a “compare and contrast” with your current understanding and then show how the worldview influences attitudes.  Even as in your own life you minimize what I call the “emotional meat hooks” reaction to some of those verses, keep those compare/contrast comments coming.  Please.  Especially in this political era.

I’m trying to figure out what secular word to use that goes beyond “contribution” to describe your work, and all I can come up with is still “ministry” – and I hope it’s not a trigger word for you.  “Minister,” as I now use it, encompasses the whole person, psychological, intellectual, social, and spiritual (in a broad sense).  I see you as putting your pastoral instincts to work in bringing sanity to so many.  And, yes, complexity is the right way to describe how you bring in so many threads to weave a new cloth.

It may be that the more you associate with people who are farther away from toxic Christianity, the less you see (or value) your own unique ability to bridge the gap in understanding.  I think the worldview/default setting arena is the only way to get effective conversations going.

All my best to you and Bob.  Pass my thanks on to him, too. You’re making a huge difference for so many people.  Your caring heart comes through. Looking forward to your next podcast.

We taped this conversation on July 29th, 2017. We interview people you don’t know, about a subject no one wants to talk about. We hope to encourage people in the process of deconstructing their faith and help curb the loneliness that accompanies it. We think the world is a better place when more people live by sight, not by faith. Please subscribe to our podcast, and leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts. Our show is available on most podcast platforms.  Also, you can support us monetarily in two easy ways: you can pledge one dollar per episode through Patreon; that’s www.patreon.com/eapodcast, or leave a lump-sum donation through PayPal at our website, www.everyonesagnostic.com. The smallest contribution is greatly appreciated.

Credits:
"Towering Mountain of Ignorance" intro by Hank Green https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3v3S82TuxU
Intro bumper "Never Know" by Jack Johnson
The segue music is on this episode was created by the Barry Orchestra found at https://barryorchestra.bandcamp.com/

Thanks for listening and be a yes-sayer to what is.


Direct download: Ep_162_Bonnie__Clyde.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 5:07pm CDT
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