Everyone's Agnostic Podcast (general)
Cass & Bob interview people you don't know about a subject no one wants to talk about--losing faith in the supernatural.

Cass Midgley and Bob Pondillo interview Joy Hopper. She's the author of her memoir, "Joy Unspeakable: Toxic Faith and Rose Colored Glasses." This is the quintessential EA episode. Joy's story is many abused Christian  women's stories, and yet Joy shares the tragic details with the timbre of an upbeat college girl.

Before we get into our talk with Joy, a word of caution to the ex-Christian men listening. If you even slightly built your marriage on the scriptures, this story is going to sting. Now Joy's ex-husband, whose name is Troy, takes it to the extreme, but I found myself cringing when reading her accounts of the marriage in her book and during this interview. I can easily judge Troy and even hate Troy, but as I did, it had the familiar feeling of Troy reflecting back to me that which I hate about myself.

There's a Buddhist teaching that can help us understand Troy and ourselves and even Joy. It's especially relevant in this time when the cultural scales of justice are shifting in favor of the oppressed and the long overdo condemnation of the oppressors. What we're seeing these days with all these tragic stories coming to the surface about men using their power to get women to do their bidding and how that whole power dynamic steamrolls the woman's consent, is not black and white, it's a spectrum. This is why we're now seeing women push back in France against the potential for this to become a puritanical witch hunt. The human mating ritual is awkward even for married couples who've had sex 5,000 times. It's always a little awkward and neither party ever really knows how into it the other is until several risk-taking moves have been made to test the waters.

Anyway, I want to talk about the spectrum of human behavior and emotional health as interpreted through the Buddhist teaching called the 8 worldly winds. It's 4 sets of 2 poles sitting opposite of each other. In between is a spectrum. And throughout our lives we are somewhere on the spectrum between the two poles. We constantly ebb and flow across it. The first of the two pairs is something we all want and the second is something we all don't want. We all have a tendency to lust after the first thing and be afraid of the second. They are:

This model is a great map for understanding motivation in ourselves and in others. It teaches that every one of us, in our intention to move through this life, are affected by these 8 worldly winds that are constantly battering us. The first two are:

Greed and Lack - everyone of us has desire to gain, to get things, and with that a fear of loss or going without. Sometimes we operate from a place of greed, other times from a place of lack. Both are toxic for us and our relationships. The Buddhist aspiration is find a balance and detach from both the greed form more the fear of lack.

The second pair is Status and Disgrace - everyone of us has desire to be to be seen, to be known and respected, and with that a fear of disgrace, or a fear of being ignored.

the third: Praise and Blame - everyone of us thrives when we experience praise from others, and we fear blame.

lastly: Pleasure and Pain - everyone of us wants pleasure and we have an aversion to pain.

When we seek for the former or flee from the latter, we can live in an irritable often depressed state and it directly affects our relationships. when we reflect on conflict with others it can be interesting to sense which one of the motivators is running really strong at that moment.   

I bring this up in the context of Joy and her abusive husband. We'll see in Troy a deep need for status and thus a deep disdain for being ignored. If you too wrestle with these particular worldly winds, you may recognize yourself in Troy. This will likely disgust you with more fervor than others because it's so close to home for you (I'm speaking from experience here). This brings up another pitfall. It's clear that Troy has a problem--his extreme need for power and the fear of his own weakness. But he will compound this problem if he also has a problem with having the problem. Here's how this works. Joy tells a story where they have a disagreement in the house. Joy is late to run an errand and has to leave the house. Troy interprets this as Joy ignoring him. He's lost the status he craves and feels disgraced when she leaves him behind. He's feeling the pain and disappoint of this, so he storms out to the driveway, pounds on the window and demands that she come back inside. "We're not finished with this conversation," he yells. By now he's aware that he's out of control. He's scared the children in the car. The neighbors may be watching, and now he begins to hate himself for behaving this way but it's too late. He's in over his head, his adrenaline is pumping, he's invested and can't admit that he's made a mistake because he not only has this problem, but he's embarrassed that has the problem in the first place, let alone the unseemly behavior. He needs help, for sure, but the challenge for any therapist he visits is that they will likely have to build him up before he can deal with his issues. If he looks into the mirror and sees the monster, he will repel because he has a problem with having a problem and instead of owning it, he will deny it and distance himself from it, digging yet a deeper hole than he had when he walked in the office. His therapy will take week, months, years just so he has a strong enough self-esteem that when he sees the monster in the mirror he can have compassion on himself.

These theories help me when I see someone like Troy or Harvey Weinstein or even Donald Trump and see a reflection of myself. Obviously my first reaction is disgust and it can easily turn into self-hatred (which is not helpful). But if I can know that while, yes, I am on the same spectrum as these assholes, I'm not necessarily in the same spot on the spectrum. But just having this awareness can help me move along the spectrum in a way that is less like these monsters.

I'm not a hard core Harry Potter fan but one of the movies was on in the background at my house recently and I stopped to watch it. I learned that a part of Voldemort is inside Harry. It made me think that a part of Donald Trump is in me. Now before you vomit, consider this: one sure way that we can make the world a better place, improve society, mitigate wars, and promote world peace is to begin to see ourselves connected to one another--even those who disgust us, especially those that disgust us. Here's a brief excerpt from the Harry Potter story:

Harry:
[to Sirius] This connection between me and Voldemort, what if the reason for it is that I'm becoming more like him? [starts to choke up; fighting back tears] I just feel so... angry, all the time. And what if after everything I've been through, something's gone wrong inside me. What if I'm becoming bad?

Sirius:
I want you to listen to me very carefully, Harry. You're not a bad person. You're a very good person, who bad things have happened to. You understand? [Harry nods] Besides, the world isn't split into good people and Death Eaters. We have all got both light and dark inside us. What matters is the power we choose to act on. That's who we really are.

Former guest of this podcast and host of the NPR program, "On Being," Krista Tippet Tweeted this week regarding the intense racist climate fostered by Donald Trump, "The spiritual danger in a moment like this is that we orient so passionately towards what we reject that we mirror it, amplifying its energy and its ethos. Dr. King said, "hate is too great a burden to bear." He modeled a "strong, demanding love" even as he battled hate."  

And one of the 32 declarations of healthy adulthood is "Until I see another’s behavior with compassion, I have not understood it." The danger of seeing another's behavior with judgment is that ironically, before you know it, you become what you hate.  So when I see disgusting behavior, I let myself feel as much disgust as my mind and body decide it merits AND I know that if not for higher love, understanding and compassion, there go I. I see the evil, feel it in my body, I don't judge myself for feeling it AND I don't judge the person for doing it. I see it, assess it for what it is, and try to get in touch with some compassion. Because the truth is, while I may be more self-aware or more disciplined or whatever, but at a primal level, I am not superior to that person and under the same circumstances as their life, I would likely do the same exact thing. This another way we benefit from saying yes to what is; to that which we cannot control.

The faith Joy inherited at the age of three worked for almost fifty years. She believed it, preached it, wrote songs about it, lived it. Jesus was the center of her universe, literally and metaphorically. Hence, one can only imagine the tsunami that followed when her ironclad theological foundation unexpectedly and involuntarily collapsed with a deafening thud.

Joy's narrative chronicles her experiences of indoctrination from a young child to the present, as viewed through her rose-colored glasses. From early neglect to domestic violence, she shares how her distorted lens of faith turned every obstacle into an object lesson and every injustice into a refining tool. She exposes the toxicity of a religion that promises unspeakable joy amidst the backdrop of terror and violence. Joy offers hope to others who, like her, have found the courage to walk away and discover the world is even more beautiful without the enhanced overlay of religion.

We taped the following conversation with Joy Hopper on January 14th, 2018 (the audio got this wrong).

We interview people you don’t know, about a subject no one wants to talk about. We hope to encourage people in the process of deconstructing their faith and help curb the loneliness that accompanies it. We think the world is a better place when more people live by sight, not by faith. Please subscribe to our podcast, and leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts.

Also, you can support us monetarily in two easy ways: you can pledge monthly gift at www.patreon.com/eapodcast, or leave a lump-sum donation through PayPal at our website, www.everyonesagnostic.com. The smallest contribution is greatly appreciated.


Credits:
"Towering Mountain of Ignorance" intro by Hank Green https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3v3S82TuxU
Intro bumper "Never Know" by Jack Johnson
The segue music on this episode the rhythm track of "Black Tamborine" by Beck 

Thanks for listening! And be a Yes-Sayer to what is! 

Direct download: Ep_186_Joy_Hopper.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 5:39pm CST
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Cass Midgley and Bob Pondillo interview Derreck Bennett. Derreck is the author a book entitled, Addictus, which is a word for someone who is a debt slave; a person who has been bound as a slave to his creditor. Derrick agrees with step 1 of the 12 steps that he is powerless over alcohol but most AA groups take that powerlessness to a degree in which Derreck found counterintuitive. As an atheist fascinated by religion and philosophy, Derreck has studied extensively to glean a comprehensive understanding of the history and origins of religion. His story is both tragic and inspiring as he models how to overcome nihilism and create a life for himself after hopelessness. He was raised believing John 3:16 literally, that believers were immortal in every sense of the word--even their bodies would not die. Imagine the cog diss when his father and mother both died. It's no wonder he  tried to anesthetize his pain through alcohol.

Raw nihilism is the belief that everything is meaningless. It's extreme form argues that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated. That level of nihilism could produce a depressing hopelessness and despair. But a lite version of it could actually produce hope and happiness. Like the old bumper sticker, Life's a Bitch and then you die. I think these are truths that can set us free.

As argued in his book, The Denial of Death, Ernest Becker says that most humans work very hard to suppress the awareness of their own impending death. But I have found that when I do the opposite--I keep it at the fore of my awareness--then I actually value more the people and circumstances of my otherwise banal life. After all, if I'm alive to experience them, it means I didn't die today and that's a tremendous realization. If it's simply good to be alive, then even the worst day is at least a day--something I'm experiencing and any judgment I place on it feels like entitlement.
I don't do this, but what if we started each day saying to ourselves, "I could die today," instead of hiding that fact from ourselves. The "life's a bitch" part is similar. I think it's worth saying out loud and to ourselves every day, "life is hard." Not in a self-pitiful way, but just as a check-in to make sure we've not slow and sneaky buried our heads in the sand. There's not one human on this planet that doesn't take a beating from this existence on a regular basis. It's going to get you and HAS been getting you your entire life. Nothing can stop it from hurting us and fucking with us. As a species we work hard to mitigate our pain and suffering, but no amount of our money, medicine, religions, science, self-help, exercise, entertainment, culture, travel, drugs, alcohol, sex, technology nor fancy foods can prevent it from kicking our asses on a regular basis. All races, religions, nationalities, ethnicities, genders, rich or poor all feel the pain of being human. Life is hard. No one comes through unscathed. I'm not saying "get over it." I'm not saying "buck it up." I'm not even saying, "stop whining." I'm just saying two universal truths: life is hard and it could end today. Yeah, the hardness of life and our unavoidable impending deaths are unambiguous and self-evident. Usually such things should go without saying. But given how hard we try to drown out the constant dull hum of those truths, we would do well to instead pump up the volume and let honesty breed its best offspring: a jovial carefree acceptance of this amazing consciousness we're all experiencing.

I posted a meme this week that said, "Actions prove who someone is. Words just prove who they want to be." I like devices like this, that cut through ambiguity; that shine like a flashlight on that which is otherwise murky. I like how this particular axiom looks to the evidence to know something. It's an example of living by sight, not by faith. But I wonder if people aren't a little too complicated for bumper sticker size slogans to fully capture the nuances of being human. For example, if my mother saw me flipping off my best friend or heard me cuss she might use that line of thinking--that actions identify a person--to judge me as having poor character. And she would be wrong. In this case, I would she fulfill 2 Corinthians 5:7 and actually use her faith in my character to overrule what only sight might determine.

When I posted that meme, on old friend of mine from back in Oklahoma commented. He's a Christian. In fact, I once looked to him as a spiritual director in my life. I've had many good mentors in my life. His name is Mike Shaw if any of you have ever seen him chime in with his Christian rhetoric. He's really a great guy--just totally and irreversibly brainwashed in the Jesus-stuff. But when he read the meme, "Actions prove who someone is. Words just prove who they want to be," he wrote, "Not necessarily! If their words are truth then actions will eventually follow. The heart must have a truth infusion before their tree can bare apples!" Which actual affirms the axiom. I'm reminded of the saying, "what you think about expands," or another version of that comes from The Secret, "what you think about you bring about." And although I don't believe there's anything supernatural or magical about that or that we have the ability to think something into existence, I'm convinced that how we frame things is very powerful and can tremendously influence our attitudes, moods, emotions, and ultimately our lives. A few other mystical scriptures come to mind: "Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks." (people used to use that to point out my wicked heart because of my foul mouth. Which by the way, we cuss on this show quite a bit, I guess, and I just have to say that the vowels and consonants one chooses to form sounds that symbolize meaning is, in and of itself, amoral. What makes a sentence immoral is the content and the intent, not the form or packaging by which it is delivered). Anyway, "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks" has always meant to me that when a person talks, they reveal what's in there heart. Which is another way that the meme I posted is inadequate in capturing human complexity. The meme says "actions prove who someone is. Words just prove who they want to be." Whereas if this scripture is true, "out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks," then we can also know who someone is by some of the words they speak; especially if they grumble and complain a lot, or talk about their own achievements a lot. In that case, we might assess that they lacked praise and affirmation as a child and are now compensating for that deficit as an adult. Another scripture that may contribute to this topic is Romans 4:17, which refers to God as "one who calls forth that which is not as though it were." Or calls things into being from nothing. Now, as I mentioned, I don't believe in magical powers or even that things happen for a reason. As a matter of fact, if something happens that you've been thinking about, I believe its pure coincidence. 100%. However, if you've actually been doing something that would increase the potential for something to happen, then if and when it does, you can know that your actions and your words, that sprang from heart, brought about something that would not have happened had you not got off your ass, trusted your own heart and desire, spoke to yourself and others about how you could help bring that thing about, these are that which changed the world, altered history, and opened up opportunities in your life.

Also, the framing of your reality plays a big role in influencing your emotional health. When it comes to that which you cannot change, placing yourself in a posture of acceptance allows one to adjust and accommodate even one's mistakes as something one learned from rather something to be ashamed of. One of my favorite Maya Angelou quotes is, "Forgive yourself for not knowing what you didn't know before you learned it."

Because today's guest, Derreck Bennett talks openly about his alcoholism and his experience with the 12 step program, he references the Serenity Prayer. Which he reinterprets from a secular perspective and is some pretty good shit, such as follows:

"May I grant myself the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; the courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference. Living one day at a time; enjoying one moment at a time; accepting hardships as the pathway to peace; taking this flawed world as it is, not as I would have it; that I may be reasonably happy in this life and supremely happy with myself."

We taped the following conversation with Derreck Bennett on January 6th, 2017. 
We interview people you don’t know, about a subject no one wants to talk about. We hope to encourage people in the process of deconstructing their faith and help curb the loneliness that accompanies it. We think the world is a better place when more people live by sight, not by faith. Please subscribe to our podcast, and leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts.

Also, you can support us monetarily in two easy ways: www.patreon.com/eapodcast, or leave a lump-sum donation through PayPal at our website, www.everyonesagnostic.com. The smallest contribution is greatly appreciated.

Thanks for listening and be a Yes-sayer to what is. :) 

Credits:
"Towering Mountain of Ignorance" intro by Hank Green https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3v3S82TuxU
Intro bumper "Never Know" by Jack Johnson
The segue music on this episode was created Hans Zimmer from the movie Interstellar

Derreck's links:

Atheologica and Atheomedy:

https://www.amazon.com/Addictus-Nonbelievers-Recovery-Derreck-Bennett-ebook/dp/B076HGHRT8

https://atheologica.wordpress.com/


https://atheomedy.wordpress.com/

Bart Ehrman's blanket denial of dying and rising gods in antiquity:  https://atheologica.wordpress.com/2016/09/06/ehrman-errs-yes-bart-there-were-dying-rising-gods/

And the following two specifically address mythicism:

https://atheologica.wordpress.com/2017/08/16/jesus-man-or-myth/

https://atheomedy.wordpress.com/2017/09/16/not-even-a-carpenter-why-a-historical-jesus-is-doubtful/

Direct download: Ep_185_Derreck_Bennett.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 11:45pm CST
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Cass Midgley and Bob Pondillo interview Joel de los Santos. Joel currently lives in Canada but was raised in the Dominican Republic. His Christian journey started as Catholic, then Unity Church, following his parents lead, then he took his own path to evangelical charismatic non-denominational. He and his wife have two sons, his eldest is on the Autism spectrum. The audio is not the best for the first 21 minutes, but gets better and Joel's English is fast and a little mixed with Spanish, but these audio challenges can't keep his big heart and sharp mind from coming through.

Listener email: 

Hi Mr. Midgley,

I have been listening to your podcast for about seven or eight months now and have become a huge fan. While I'm not like many of your guests who've de-converted, I struggled for many years trying to "become" a christian, and suffered a lot of anger and confusion about why it just wouldn't "click" for me and make sense like it does for so many others. I wasn't raised particularly religious, but we did attend church pretty regularly until I was a teenager. When I was a young adult I went back to church trying to become "Christian". I didn't throw myself into it, honestly believing I would naturally have some kind of epiphany and suddenly feel all the certainty that many of my Christian friends felt about the bible. My best friend is a Christian who's heavily involved in her church. She had always been the image of what I expected I would be like once my "epiphany" came. I envied her complete trust in god - despite the discordance I felt about the bible and god's influence in the world. Well, it all started unraveling when trying to start a family revealed that I had some medical issues that would prevent conception. So we prayed... a lot. In the end, god didn't answer our prayer, science did. We had a successful IVF cycle and achieved pregnancy. And although we stood up in church and thanked god for our miracle, I became bitter, angry, and confused afterward. I carried around this bitterness toward god for not giving me a pregnancy naturally. I paid thousands of dollars and underwent uncomfortable medical procedures in order to have my babies. I felt like god had cheated me. Finally though, I had my epiphany. I let go of trying to make sense of a senseless god. The transformation has been revitalizing! Finding your show has added to the peace I feel with my newfound non-belief. One of my biggest conflicts about giving up the search for god was, "What am I if I'm not a believer?" The word atheist sounded scary and like something I didn't want to be labeled as. This is something that your show has really helped me with. Hearing the stories of your guests has shown me that atheist is not a dirty word, goodness and kindness are not dependent on belief in god, and I'm not alone in my non-belief.

Thank you so much for the work you do. Your podcast is bringing some good to the world. Sincerely, Jennifer 

We taped this conversation on December 17th, 2017. We interview people you don’t know, about a subject no one wants to talk about. We hope to encourage people in the process of deconstructing their faith and help curb the loneliness that accompanies it. We think the world is a better place when more people live by sight, not by faith. Please subscribe to our podcast, and leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts. Also, you can support us monetarily in two easy ways: you can pledge one dollar per episode or more through Patreon; that’s www.patreon.com/eapodcast, or leave a lump-sum donation through PayPal at our website, www.everyonesagnostic.com. The smallest contribution is greatly appreciated.

Credits:
"Towering Mountain of Ignorance" intro by Hank Green https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3v3S82TuxU
Intro bumper "Never Know" by Jack Johnson
The segue music on this episode was created by the Barry Orchestra found at https://barryorchestra.bandcamp.com/

Thanks for listening and be a yes-sayer to what is. 

Joel's Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Joymaker

Direct download: Ep_184_Joel_de_los_Santos.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 9:12pm CST
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Cass Midgley and Bob Pondillo interview Keith B. Keith is a software engineer, dancer, and ex-Creationist living in Augusta, GA. He came from a homeschooling Independent Fundamental Baptist family in southern California, got a degree in Biology at Pensacola Christian College, and moved to Georgia to start a secular PhD program in Biology.  While in grad school, he started dancing. His world expanded as he became close friends with people outside the fundamentalist world, and eventually religion could no longer withstand the strain of contradictions these new connections were revealing. He'd begun reading about the history of Christianity; and initially, the evidence he learned only made him question fundamentalism. As he attempted to find a faith he could hold in good conscience, he was surprised to discover that in this commitment to evidence he'd become atheist. He's now an atheist and secular humanist; and tries to follow the evidence and live a life of sight, not faith.

This talk went long because after an hour of taping, Bob had to leave and yet Keith had more points he wanted to cover, he and Cass keep talking for another 40 minutes. They talk about mitochondria, polyamory and Keith's deconversion process. Keith is a fascinating person and thinker. We think you're going to enjoy this conversation. We taped it on December 16th, 2017.

We interview people you don’t know, about a subject no one wants to talk about. We hope to encourage people in the process of deconstructing their faith and help curb the loneliness that accompanies it. We think the world is a better place when more people live by sight, not by faith. Please subscribe to our podcast, and leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts. Also, you can support us monetarily in two easy ways: you can pledge one dollar per episode or more through Patreon; that’s www.patreon.com/eapodcast, or leave a lump-sum donation through PayPal at our website, www.everyonesagnostic.com. The smallest contribution is greatly appreciated.

Credits:
"Towering Mountain of Ignorance" intro by Hank Green https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3v3S82TuxU
Intro bumper "Never Know" by Jack Johnson
The segue music on this episode was created by Cass Midgley

Thanks for listening, and be a Yes-sayer to what is! 

http://existentialcomics.com/

Kimchi Cuddles

Blues Dance World podcast w/ Tim O'Neil

 

Direct download: Ep_183_Keith_B.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 10:53am CST
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Cass Midgley and Bob Pondillo interview Valerie Torico. Dr. Valerie Tarico is a psychologist and writer with a passion for personal and social evolution. Today, we discuss Tarico’s book, Trusting Doubt:  A Former Evangelical Looks at Old Beliefs in a New Light, offers personal insight into how we can apply “constructive curiosity” to our most closely guarded beliefs.  

As a social commentator, Tarico tackles issues ranging from religious fundamentalism to gender roles, to reproductive rights and technologies. A primary focus is on improving access to top tier contraceptive technologies. To that end, in 2015, she co-founded Resilient Generation, a family planning advocacy hub based in Seattle, Washington. She serves on the board of Advocates for Youth, a D.C. based nonprofit with wide-ranging programs related to reproductive health and justice, and is a Senior Writing Fellow at Sightline Institute, a think tank focused on sustainable prosperity. Her articles have appeared at sites including the Huffington Post, Jezebel, Salon, AlterNet, and the Institute for Ethics and Emerging Technologies, and they are available at ValerieTarico.com.

Bob and I (Cass) wish you a wonderful summer solstice, time with family and friends, the giving and receiving of gifts from loved ones, and however else you recognize these year end holidays. If you're going to be with family with whom there is religious tension, I encourage you to stick to humanist values when you're with them and be present as a healthy, mature version of yourself. To that end, I will now read excerpts from the third Humanist Manifesto and David Richo's declarations of healthy adulthood:

As humans, you and your family members are an integral part of nature, the result of evolutionary change, an unguided process. Our ethical values are derived from human need and interest as tested by experience. Our fulfillment in life emerges from individual participation in the service of humane ideals. Humans are social by nature and find meaning in relationships. Working to benefit society, even a micro-society like your family gatherings, maximizes your own individual happiness. We humanists have respect for differing views in an open social context, as long as they are humane.

And from Richo, in preparation for potentially incendiary encounters with family and friends, say these to yourself before you engage:

I accept full responsibility for the shape my life has taken.
I need never fear my own truth, thoughts, or sexuality.
I let people go away or stay and I am still okay.
I accept that I may never feel I am receiving – or have received – all the attention I seek.
I acknowledge that reality is not obligated to me; it remains unaffected by my wishes or rights.
One by one, I drop every expectation of people and things.
I reconcile myself to the limits on others’ giving to me and on my giving to them.
Until I see another’s behavior with compassion, I have not understood it.
I let go of blame, regret, vengeance, and the infantile desire to punish those who hurt or reject me.
I am still safe when I cease following the rules my parents (or others) set for me.
I cherish my own integrity and do not use it as a yardstick for anyone else’s behavior.
I am free to have and entertain any thought. I do not have the right to do whatever I want. I respect the limits of freedom and still act freely.
No one can or needs to bail me out. I am not entitled to be taken care of by anyone or anything.
I give without demanding appreciation though I may always ask for it.
I reject whining and complaining as useless distractions from direct action on or withdrawal from unacceptable situations.
I let go of control without losing control.
If people knew me as I really am, they would love me for being human like them.
I drop poses and let my every word and deed reveal what I am really like.
I live by personal standards and at the same time – in self-forgiveness – I make allowances for my occasional lapses.
I grant myself a margin of error in my relationships. I release myself from the pain of having to be right or competent all the time.
I accept that it is normal to feel that I do not always measure up.
I am ultimately adequate to any challenge that comes to me.
My self-acceptance is not complacency since in itself it represents an enormous change.
I am happy to do what I love and love what is.
Wholehearted engagement with my circumstances releases my irrepressible liveliness.
I love unconditionally and set sane conditions on my self-giving.

So get out there and be your self. Your "self" and presence are precious. Someday you and all your family members will be dead, never to be experienced ever again. You and they will not be sitting around the dinner table someday. But this Christmas,  you and they will be there, together, in the same rooms, and that is valuable beyond measure. Bring your body, mind and soul into those rooms. As much as you're able and comfortable, be the miracle that you are with those people, whether they understand that or not. Be gentle with yourself. Don't do anything you don't want to do. Be as honest as you can and look for the magic moments, as brief and rare as they may be. And remember Bob and I and the relationships you've made through this podcast and the larger atheist community and that you are LOVED just as you are, even if your family is unable to do that. Happy Holidays my agnostic friends!  

We taped the conversation with Valerie Tarico on November 19th, 2017. We interview people you don’t know, about a subject no one wants to talk about. We hope to encourage people in the process of deconstructing their faith and help curb the loneliness that accompanies it. We think the world is a better place when more people live by sight, not by faith. Please subscribe to our podcast, and leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts. Also, you can support us monetarily in two easy ways: you can pledge one dollar per episode or more through Patreon; that’s www.patreon.com/eapodcast, or leave a lump-sum donation through PayPal at our website, www.everyonesagnostic.com. The smallest contribution is greatly appreciated.

Credits:
"Towering Mountain of Ignorance" intro by Hank Green https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3v3S82TuxU
Intro bumper "Never Know" by Jack Johnson
The segue music on this episode was created by Cass Midgley

Thanks for listening! And be a Yes-sayer to what is. 

https://valerietarico.com/

http://www.wisdomcommons.org/

Twitter: @valerietarico 

The movie, "The Mask You Live In." 

 

Direct download: Ep_182_Valerie_Tarico.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 9:25am CST
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Cass Midgley and Bob Pondillo interview Corinna Nicolaou, author of "A None's Story: Searching for Meaning Inside Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, and Islam" Corinna is a writer whose work has appeared in the Washington Post, Los Angeles Times, Texas Observer, Salon, and Narrative Magazine, among other publications. Her commentaries have aired on National Public Radio's All Things Considered, and her writing can be found on her blog, One None Gets Some: Looking at Life Through the Lens of Faith."A None's Story" has been reviewed in the New York Times, Shelf-Awareness and Publishers Weekly.  

We're going to flip the show upside down this week. We normally interview people who were raised deeply religious, usually Christian, and then deconstruct their childhood faith to various degrees of unbelief. Corinna is the opposite--she was raised completely secular and yet in her 40's she had something of an existential crisis and wondered if she wasn't missing out on something. The majority of the human population identify with some religion or another. She wondered why and set out to see what all the hubbub was about. Today she identifies as a None, but has gleaned a little bit, here and there, from the major world religions while discarding the bullshit. Her measuring stick is, "if it helps me love people, I'll take it; if it tells me certain people should be my enemies, I throw it out."

 

She joins us from Washington state via Skype. It's a decent conversation at first but really picks up in the end. Still it may not be for everyone; Corinna is very graceful towards the major world religions, in a kind of a naive way, to be honest. She was never burned by religion like many of you.  She has two masters degrees and teaches writing at Washington State. I think there's something here for us to learn if you're open minded. Though she remains a devout none, Nicolaou's experiences reveal points of contact between the religious and the unaffiliated, suggesting that nones may be radically revising the practice of faith in the near future.

We taped the conversation on November 18th, 2017. We interview people you don’t know, about a subject no one wants to talk about. We hope to encourage people in the process of deconstructing their faith and help curb the loneliness that accompanies it. We think the world is a better place when more people live by sight, not by faith. Please subscribe to our podcast, and leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts. Also, you can support us monetarily in two easy ways: you can pledge one dollar per episode or more through Patreon; that’s www.patreon.com/eapodcast, or leave a lump-sum donation through PayPal at our website, www.everyonesagnostic.com. The smallest contribution is greatly appreciated.

Credits:
"Towering Mountain of Ignorance" intro by Hank Green https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3v3S82TuxU
Intro bumper "Never Know" by Jack Johnson
The segue music on this episode was created by the Barry Orchestra found at https://barryorchestra.bandcamp.com/

Corinna's Blog site

Amazon for her book

Publisher's site for the book

Direct download: Ep_181_Corinna_Nicolaou.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 11:29pm CST
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Today, we bring you two guests: One is a follow-up interview with former guest of the show on episode 108, Marie. But before that Dave Warnock and Cass Midgley talk with Mark Russell about his book, "God is Disappointed in You."

Marie was a hard-core YWAMmer, an extremely devout Christian and her deconversion was long and difficult. It was around 10 years ago and she's still recovering. Her deconversion came about because she started asking why certain things were true. Well, if you keep asking why we do things, you're liable to unearth some social norms that are just not very grounded in logic, but rather tradition, or even fear, or just deeply ingrained social patterns. My talk with Marie is primarily about her and husband's exploration into what she calls Ethical Non-monogamy. also known as Polyamory. She is extremely honest and transparent and cusses like a sailor. This is good talk. But, before Marie, we're going to feature Mark Russell, author of the comedic slightly sardonic book about the Bible titled, God is Disappointed in You. He also writes the comic book series Prez and The Flintstones for DC Comics. I start with a presentation Mark gives at Comicon where he summarizes the entire Bible, alpha to omega, in 15 minutes. He's in front of a live audience and uses a Powerpoint presentation so some of the humor is lost on us, in this audio medium, but it's still a lot of fun. Then Dave Warnock and I interview Mark in Portland, OR via Skype for about 30 minutes. Then we get into Marie's open marriage. My beloved cohost Bob Pondillo was not involved in either of these interviews, but he's back for next week's episode in which we interview Corinna Nicolau, who's kind of the opposite of our typical guest. She was raised completely secular but wondered what she'd missed out on and set out to search for meaning the top 4 world religions. Her experience is expressed in her book,  "A None's Story: Searching for Meaning Inside Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, and Islam." That's next week's episode.

I want to talk about compartmentalization and love. Compartmentalization is a subconscious psychological defense mechanism used for the purpose of avoiding cognitive dissonance, or the mental discomfort and anxiety caused by a person having conflicting values, cognitions, emotions, beliefs, etc. I'm going to borrowing some of the thoughts I found in an article called, "The Good, The Bad, The Ugly of a Man’s Ability to Compartmentalize," on a blog called SGM for Single Black Male. But I'm also talking about how people raised in Christianity have some highly developed compartmentalization skills. One of the purposes that religions serve is to help people not think about scary things--to compartmentalize such thoughts. Death being the most daunting thought known to humankind, Christianity creates a narrative that literally enables a person to say, "death, where is your sting?" Everlasting life. Immortality. Done. Christians also have to compartmentalize eternal torture of their fellow humans. Those who concede that they believe in a literal hell have to compartmentalize that entire concept in order to not spend every minute of every day running around warning people. After that's what a good, moral person would do if they were conscious of its reality. This is why hell-fire preachers on the street are good people--they're deceived, but at least they're acting on those deceptions. They are loving you. As our the Westboro Baptist people. They just aren't as good as compartmentalizing as Christians who aren't warning you about Hell. I think it was Penn Jillette who said, "How much do you have to hate someone to believe everlasting life is possible and not tell them that?” Eternal bliss and eternal torment hang in the balance. If compartmentalization requires some mental maneuvering, imagine how much mental contorting is going on in the brain of one of your loved ones who believe in eternal life, know you're going to the bad end of it, and have to sit through lunch with you? It's no wonder that relationships are broken when we deconvert. It's just too much for our believing friends and family to deal with. They may even take your photos down in their house, because just seeing you makes their hearts and minds wince in pain.

Okay, now some completely secular thoughts on compartmentalization. The good, the bad, and the ugly. It's a good thing to use for work environments. Say for example, your going through something difficult in your personal life. You would do well to compartmentalize that stuff as you walk into work. It's just not the place for it. If you're a car salesman, you need to be upbeat, positive, energetic in order to sell cars. If you're personal life sucks, you better figure out how to flip that switch. In fact, we all know that if you are unable to gather your composure, in other words, the thing you should be compartmentalizing is just too big for your mind to fit into that compartment, you should just stay at home. The inverse of this is true: if work is stressing you out, you should not take that out on your partner and/or your children or friends. Compartmentalize that shit. It stinks. It kinda comes down to knowing the appropriate time and place for things.

Which brings us to some ways in which compartmentalization can be a bad thing. Think back to Shanna's episode, #174. She pointed out that humans have two needs that are often in conflict: the need to be genuine and the need to belong to the tribe. If forced to choose between the two, survivors will always choose the tribe, even if it means sacrificing their authenticity. They're forced to Compartmentalize their true self and put on whatever mask or persona they know will keep their fellow tribespeople accepting them into the tribe. This is where Compartmentalization is utilized to make you into a disingenuous person. If you do this long enough, you can forget who you are. Your true self is miles and years in your rear view mirror and if and when you ever decide to get real, it can feel like a long way back. However, it's really not. It's hard to believe, but you can begin being true, genuine, honest, and authentic at the drop of a hat. What makes it feel difficult or even impossible is when we try to know ourselves by going within--by introspection. I recommend last week's monologue on episode 179 to better understand this paradox. Anyway, the solution to not having to choose b/w authenticity and belonging is find a tribe that accepts you just as you are, so you can have both. In fact, true friends and lovers will know when you're using your car salesman skills on them rather than just letting your down and will likely be hurt by your distrust of their open acceptance. They've created a safe space for you to be true and you're still putting on airs. That's rough. That's painful...for everyone, and can ruin otherwise good, healthy relationships if your Compartmentalization habits are on auto-pilot and you are emotionally unavailable to those really need you, it's going to strain those relationships. Those grooves in your brain can grow deep. Good thing neuroplasticity can change those old habits.

Another example of bad compartmentalization is if you're watching TV knowing that you've got a paper due tomorrow (and you're able to enjoy yourself) then you're compartmentalizing. Procrastinating is easy when you can put what you’re supposed to be doing in a box that you don’t have to look at.

Without going into it, the ugliest manifestations of toxic compartmentalization are infidelity and sociopathy. You can probably imagine how that happens.

In summary, bad Compartmentalization is when it's coming from a place of fear. Good Compartmentalize is coming from love. Love for that couple buying a car, the family waiting for you at home, and the community of friends that love you enough to call you if you bring that car salesman posing into that intimate space. A healthy adult is in control of their life in ways that uses Compartmentalization appropriately when it is to their advantage while still operating in love for their fellow humans. As I've said for years, "be who you is, cause if you is who you ain't, you ain't who you is." because the world desperately needs all of us to be more honest with ourselves and each other.

I taped the conversation with Marie back on October 16th, 2017, and we taped the conversation with Mark Russell on November 5th, 2017. We interview people you don’t know, about a subject no one wants to talk about. We hope to encourage people in the process of deconstructing their faith and help curb the loneliness that accompanies it. We think the world is a better place when more people live by sight, not by faith. Please subscribe to our podcast, and leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts. Also, you can support us monetarily in two easy ways: you can pledge one dollar per episode or more through Patreon; that’s www.patreon.com/eapodcast, or leave a lump-sum donation through PayPal at our website, www.everyonesagnostic.com. The smallest contribution is greatly appreciated.

Credits:
"Towering Mountain of Ignorance" intro by Hank Green https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3v3S82TuxU
Intro bumper "Never Know" by Jack Johnson
The segue music on this episode is recorded by Sam Maher on a handpan in the NY City subway.  

The article on Compartmentalization I reference, "The Good, The Bad, The Ugly of a Man’s Ability to Compartmentalize."

The book: "The Ethical Slut

The book: "More Than Two"

Mark Russell's Twitter (it's great!) is @Manruss
The Book, "God is Disappointed in You"




Direct download: Ep_180_Marie_and_Mark.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 1:36am CST
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Cass Midgley and Bob Pondillo interview "Elle." She's not out to many of her friends and family as having left the Christian faith in which she was raised: Plymouth Brethren and a part of the Quiverfull Movement. She has a lot to say about women's issues, adopting orphans with down syndrome, her son coming out as gay, and the abundance of sexual misconduct in the Independent Fundamental Baptist denomination.

Cass' opening monologue is a complication of his thoughts, Friedrich Nietzsche, and an essay titled, "Self-Knowledge as Self-Narration in Nietzsche" by Kaitlyn Creasy. 

As complex embodiments of drives and values, we act upon a world with its own drives and values--a world in which we are connected, embedded in fact. And this driven world acts also upon us. And both are changed.  I'll close with this aphorism, number 119, from Nietzsche's book, "Dawn of Day."

"Every moment of our lives sees some of the tentacles of our being grow and others of them wither, all according to the substance which the moment does or does not bear with it… Take some trifling experience. Suppose we were in the market place one day and we noticed someone laughing at us as we went by: this event will signify this or that to us according to whether this or that drive happens, at that moment, to be at its height in us and it will be a quite different event according to the kind of person we are. One person will absorb it like a drop of rain, another will shake it from him like an insect, another will try to pick a quarrel, another will examine his clothing to see if there is anything about it that might give rise to laughter, another will be led to reflect on the nature of laughter as such, another will be glad to have involuntarily augmented the amount of cheerfulness and sunshine in the world and in each case a drive has gratified itself, whether it be the drive to annoyance or to combativeness or to reflection or to benevolence. This drive seized the event as its prey: why precisely this one? Because, thirsty and hungry, it was lying in wait… What then are our experiences? Much more that which we put into them than that which they already contain."  

We taped this conversation on November 4th, 2017. We interview people you don’t know, about a subject no one wants to talk about. We hope to encourage people in the process of deconstructing their faith and help curb the loneliness that accompanies it. We think the world is a better place when more people live by sight, not by faith. Please subscribe to our podcast, and leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts. Also, you can support us monetarily in two easy ways: you can pledge one dollar per episode or more through Patreon; that’s www.patreon.com/eapodcast, or leave a lump-sum donation through PayPal at our website, www.everyonesagnostic.com. The smallest contribution is greatly appreciated.

Credits: 
"Towering Mountain of Ignorance" intro by Hank Green https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3v3S82TuxU 
Intro bumper "Never Know" by Jack Johnson
The segue music on this episode is recorded by Sam Maher on a handpan in the NY City subway.  

Thanks for listening and be a yes-sayer to what is. 

Self-Knowledge as Self-Narration in Nietzsche - Kaitlyn Creasy

Direct download: Ep_179_Elle.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 3:49pm CST
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Cass Midgley talks with 3 former guests of this podcast on the subjects of Death, Depression and Suicide. 

My first guest is Zoe from episode 120 going by the same pseudonym she used back then. Today's episode came out of a desire to conduct follow up shows with former guests to see how their journey is going. Zoe's husband of 12 years committed suicide this summer and she wanted to come on and talk about it. I believe talking about it (and everything for that matter) is how we heal as a species. Zoe has not been shy about sharing her pain with friends. Unfortunately, her husband was shy about it and he's no longer with us. As a side note, I would like to say that the community of people connected through this podcast has really turned out to be one of the most amazing and surprising outgrowths of doing this. I got to meet Zoe and her now deceased husband, Phillip and their two children in December of last year. Unfortunately I didn't get to spend as much time as I would've liked to with them, especially now, knowing that it would be the last time I'd ever engage with Phillip. Ernest Becker, author of The Denial of Death, writes that “to live fully is to live with an awareness of the rumble of terror that underlies everything.” We can't help but be more present, love more assertively, be less selfish and have a better attitude of gratitude if we walk around aware of our own impending death and that of everyone around us.  We also might get more comfortable talking about it. Hell, getting honest about what it means to be human would help us talk about every elephant in the room--sex, mental health, suicide, insecurities. Phillip, Zoe's husband, never spoke a word to anyone about his depression or suicidal thoughts. No one knew he was in his own personal hell. And this is common in suicides. So let's talk about it. Here's a clip from Sarah Silverman on expanding the talkaboutable.

My second interview is with Mark Stephens from episode 121, and Stephen Barry from episode 139 who happens to be the guy behind the Barry Orchestra, whose music I've used for a lot of the segues on the podcast in the last year. Bob Pondillo was not a part of these interviews. Mark Stephens is a police officer who deals with suicide frequently in his work, and Stephen is a black, gay, atheist man living in the south who has battled with depression and suicidal thoughts since was a boy.

I'll end these opening comments with a quote pulled from Jennifer Michael Hecht's book, "Stay: A History of Suicide and the Philosophies Against It."

“None of us can truly know what we mean to other people, and none of us can know what our future self will experience. History and philosophy ask us to remember these mysteries, to look around at friends, family, humanity, at the surprises life brings — the endless possibilities that living offers — and to persevere. There is love and insight to live for, bright moments to cherish, and even the possibility of happiness, and the chance of helping someone else through his or her own troubles. Know that people, through history and today, understand how much courage it takes to stay. Bear witness to the night side of being human and the bravery it entails, and wait for the sun. If we meditate on the record of human wisdom we may find there reason enough to persist and find our way back to happiness. The first step is to consider the arguments and evidence and choose to stay. After that, anything may happen. First, choose to stay.”
― Jennifer Michael Hecht,

I taped these conversations in November 2017. We interview people you don’t know, about a subject no one wants to talk about. We hope to encourage people in the process of deconstructing their faith and help curb the loneliness that accompanies it. We think the world is a better place when more people live by sight, not by faith. Please subscribe to our podcast, and leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts. Also, you can support us monetarily in two easy ways: you can pledge one dollar per episode or more through Patreon; that’s www.patreon.com/eapodcast, or leave a lump-sum donation through PayPal at our website, www.everyonesagnostic.com. The smallest contribution is greatly appreciated.

Credits:
"Towering Mountain of Ignorance" intro by Hank Green https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3v3S82TuxU
Intro bumper "Never Know" by Jack Johnson
The segue music on this episode is 1-800 by Logic

Thanks for listening and be a yes-sayer to what is.

If you'd like to reach out to Zoe, her email is letterstoasilentgod@gmail.com

American Foundation for Suicide Prevention
American Assoc of Suicidology

Zoe's Blog

 

Direct download: Ep_178_Zoe_Mark_Stephen.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 4:36pm CST
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Cass Midgley and Dr. Bob Pondillo talk with Jeff Haley and Dale McGowan, authors of "SHARING REALITY: How to Bring Secularism and Science to an Evolving Religious World."

Jeff T. Haley is a scientist, lawyer, and inventor. He has argued before the U.S Supreme Court, and founded and directed the nonprofit that led Washington state's successful medical marijuana
initiative. He is currently the founder and CEO of OraHealth, which sells his patented healthcare products through 30,000 pharmacies worldwide. Dale McGowan is the author and editor of numerous books, including Parenting Beyond Belief, In Faith and In Doubt, and Atheism for Dummies. In 2008 he was named Harvard Humanist of the Year for his work in nonreligious parent education.

Religions are a natural outgrowth of the intuitive ways of knowing that evolved with human culture. Though many people continue to find value in religious identity and community, intuitive knowledge has been eclipsed by a more effective way of knowing-the scientific way. A better way of relating religion to politics called secularism is gradually replacing theocracy. Once you understand and accept the scientific way of knowing and this preferred relationship of church and state, you become agnostic and secular-even if you continue to identify with and participate in religion.As Jeff T. Haley and Dale McGowan argue in this volume, this isn't some abstract dream-it's happening right now. Religions are in a continuous state of evolution, changing beliefs, values, and practices over time. All religions, including
Christianity and Islam, can evolve to accept the scientific way of knowing and secularism, becoming agnostic and even atheistic without losing their essential value. Haley and McGowan explain how you can help this natural process, sharing reality with your friends and family in a way that encourages religions to embrace the best of humanity'S knowledge and values.

The only reason I celebrate ANYONE'S faith is if it is "light" and "loose" and full of doubt and uncertainty and love and connectedness and empathy. And I only do that because in this chapter of human history it's the best thing I can do to further the demise of all nonsense forged out of fear, childishness, death-anxiety, and the need for extant meaning, aka religions. See, even if there is a "god" or something of the sort, no human should ever bow the knee to it, nor would a good god want that. The best practice of ethics, morals, virtue, etc. is to ignore god and attend to reality--your neighbors, problem solving, conflict resolution--all the stuff that plagues us and makes life difficult. The day that we stop looking to the heavens to fix us or to save us or to create a new place for us to exit this mess, is the day that we put on our big-person pants, roll up our sleeves, and get busy living and loving the facts, what it means to be human, and the honest resolution of real problems. All notions that take our eyes off reality and onto untruths contribute to our problems, not solve them. And for those too imprinted with religion to embrace that, consider this: after we forsake god and actually love one another and fix things, any god worth her salt will still say, "well done good and faithful servant," because if his ego is too fragile to share the "glory" then fuck him!

Now I also want to say something about pedagogy. Pedagogy simply means the function or work of a teacher. Now, nobody likes a smarty pants. But lets ask ourselves why? It could be argued that often the reason people don't like people who know something they don't and want to pass it on is insecurity or jealousy, which are not virtues I feel it must be said. On the other hand, when the student is ready the teacher arrives. Which implies that, like what Jesus said, that trying to teach someone unsolicited advice can backfire. It also has the potential of cutting into their freedom to figure it out for themselves, which knowledge that's hard earned and self-determined always has a more indelible and lasting effect on the learner. It's odd isn't it? My therapist is a wise, old sage who is extremely skilled and self-disciplined in NOT giving me the answers to my problems. Because he knows the value of me figuring it out for myself. He's told me that client after client beg him to "TELL ME WHAT TO DO!" And in his wisdom, he won't. And yet our schools are filled with teachers telling kids what they don't want to hear. What's the balance? You know the phrase, "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink?" Often, we focus on the "can't make them drink" part; but think about the first part: we CAN lead people to water and sometimes we should. It goes back to what Jesus said, doesn't it? We should assess the person we're engaged with whether they seem to be a candidate for the truth we could endow in that moment. Otherwise, we're being presumptuous, are we not? For those of us who love to set people free with truth, for those of us whose lives have benefitted SO greatly from truths we've discovered and we want to do is share this or that truth with them, for those of us who see our loved ones sabotaging their own lives by believing lies, we owe to ourselves and everyone in our lives to exercise some age-old wisdom and self-control and truly discern the moment whether it's pregnant with pedagogical possibility, or that person will only resent the impartation and experience it as condescending. It will be lost on them and it will backfire. Often they will double down on their self-deception just to spite you.

Similarly, our guests today, Jeff and Dale have taken a similar high road when it comes to the religious hegemonic stronghold Christianity has over America. Instead of the firebrand atheism, which has its place, they've chosen to play nice with their fellow Americans who identify as Christian. They, like the mission of the podcast, seek to oil the wheels of the natural evolution of religious culture and slow, gentle deconstruction that truth will inevitably have on untruths.

We taped this conversation on October 21st, 2017. We interview people you don’t know, about a subject no one wants to talk about. We hope to encourage people in the process of deconstructing their faith and help curb the loneliness that accompanies it. We think the world is a better place when more people live by sight, not by faith. Please subscribe to our podcast, and leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts. Also, you can support us monetarily in two easy ways: you can pledge one dollar per episode or more through Patreon; that’s www.patreon.com/eapodcast, or leave a lump-sum donation through PayPal at our website, www.everyonesagnostic.com. The smallest contribution is greatly appreciated.

Credits:
"Towering Mountain of Ignorance" intro by Hank Green https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3v3S82TuxU
Intro bumper "Never Know" by Jack Johnson
The segue music on this episode is recorded by Sam Maher on a handpan in the NY City subway.  

Thanks for listening and be a yes-sayer to what is.

If you would like to contact our guests directly, you can reach jeff@haley.net and dale@dalemcgowan.com

parentingbeyondbelief.com/blog

 

 

 

Direct download: Ep177_Jeff_Haley__Dale_McGowan.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 9:54pm CST
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